Illustration: “The mission of the Apostles” (1631) by Battista Bissoni, Wikimedia Commons
NOTE: This is a transcript of the Living in Truth Café which took place on January 15, 2025, via Zoom. It has been edited for length. It was moderated by Living in Truth editor Rev. Andy Cornell and is presented with the consent of all participants.
Andy Cornell — First, a word of prayer. Father, Creator, loving God, we thank you for the gift of creation, for the ability to know you through your thought, for our sins to be forgiven and to have the promise of new life. Father, I thank you for this gathering. I thank you for the technology that allows us to connect. Father, I just ask for the power of your Holy Spirit to be present in our thoughts and our words, that what we are doing here tonight may be considered part of your kingdom. Kingdom growth. Kingdom Building. Father, I seek your blessing. And I seek your protective hands around us for mercies of technology. To those unable to be with us, Father, to be with them as well. I lift all of that up. In Jesus’ holy and powerful name. Amen.
You all read the invitation that went out by email or was posted. I asked you to come with some suggestions, perhaps some ideas about how we’re to respond to the times in which we live. I would love to hear what you think and have to say about this. What is the response of the authentic church In an extraordinary time?
Jim Statham, Peachland, BC – I think it was about the time when the premier of Quebec was trying to shut down public praying. And I don’t know what’s going on in Quebec, but he wants to shut down all public praying any visible expressions of religion, I guess, as he calls it. My thought was, well, that’s a terrible thing to do. Then I thought, well maybe there’s some good in it. So what I wrote down after you sent that invitation was what’s good about the decline of religion in Canada? Because we need to think about what good is happening. Are there opportunities for us to rethink how we express our faith? Because most of us measure Christianity by how many people came to church last Sunday. That’s how we do it. That is not a good measuring stick. We’re very, as Presbyterians, we’re very building oriented. And somehow we’ve got to get our faith out there more visibly, not just in Quebec, but wherever we might live wherever we might live. Because we’ve got to rethink. There is good in what’s happening, I believe, to the decline of religion in Canada. There has to be, but we’re very stuck in the ways, we’ve still got the same measuring sticks. And I think of the early church, they didn’t have the buildings that we have. And yet the church grew through the witness of people where they were. And somehow we’ve got to get to that. But there’s some good here that’s happening to the church in its decline. Secularism is on the rise, of course. That’s nothing new. The offence of the cross has become very paramount. And Christianity is being replaced by secularism because it’s much more appealing. To live our life without any interference from God or any other religious leader. And that’s very appealing in our culture.
“I heard in my spirit: “I did not call you to build a mega church. I call you to build Mega Lives.”
Andy C – What you say is almost counterintuitive. I mean, how can decline be good? But this is like a forest fire that something needs to be wiped out before it grows back stronger.
Jim Statham – Well, we have to begin to think like that. Because if the Lord is good, then there’s got to be some good in it and some correction for us. We got to correct, make some corrections here. And it seems to me the Lord’s banging very loudly on our church doors. Telling us to wake up.
Ross Davidson, Quebec – I couldn’t agree more. I got news this week from a friend in my hometown where I grew up in Ontario. It was Preston at that time and it’s now Cambridge. And the news was that my home church in Cambridge – which when I left had a membership of about 350 people – is closing its doors. And this Sunday will be its last Sunday service. And I found that incredible. Over the years, they’ve built a new building and had legacies given and saw membership grow and now it’s declined to a point where there are no people left to do the work or pay the bills or run the show so they’re joining with another congregation, the few people who are left. It’s certainly a sign of the times. I mean, it was a prosperous congregation and now it’s disappearing.
Gord Walford, Ottawa – At the church I attend, Parkwood in Ottawa, recently, there have been a number of new people attending. They run the gamut from the high school fellow who’s very inquisitive, the young fellow from China who’s studying at the local community college. James Hurd, our minister, has been having long chats with these folks about the nature of Christianity. I see these guys as thirsty. And needing water. In terms of political stuff I’m involved in a group called the Public Service Christian Fellowship. I’ve been involved in this group since the late 1970s. It’s been in existence since the late 60s, early 70s. . . . It is encouraging to see people in the public service wanting to be Christians in the workplace in the federal public service. Some departments make that easier. Some departments make that more difficult, depending on the administration. But I am constantly encouraged that there are Christians who want to follow the Lord, who want to study his word. Want to know what kind of people we’re supposed to be and how we’re supposed to deal with folks in work situations. So there’s where I’m at, just being a Christian and feeding people who are needy.
“I think of the early church, they didn’t have the buildings that we have. And yet the church grew through the witness of people where they were. And somehow we’ve got to get to that.”
Andy C – I’d be interested to know the folks that are coming into Parkwood. Are they just searching it out and turning up? Have they been invited?
Gord W – Well, I’m the web guy and I know our website has been helpful to some extent. But we are also fairly close to Algonquin College and the one fellow who’s attending who is from China and who is a student at Algonquin, he was exposed to Christianity in China and I think he sought out a church near the campus and found us. . . . As far as this young lad who’s a high school student, I’m not sure honestly how he came to attend Parkwood, but he’s a fascinating young fella very eager to learn. God just brought them to us.
Andy Cornell — Beautiful. Awesome.
Rachael Chen, Etobicoke – I think what James might have started out meaning to say is that God does bring good things out of seemingly bad situations. I can only think of the secularization in Canada – worldwide I guess – is bringing out the extremism in the anti-Christian worldviews like the rampantlike confusion about gender, which is something that even causes non-Christians to to have a moment to think. Like, is this really right even from a non-Christian perspective? And I think the extremism from theological liberalism is causing people to actually question it more. Whereas where it was in its more mild manner it might have seemed somewhat reasonable. And the guy who started Operation Reconquista (“Redeemed Zoomer” Richard Ackerman) has a video on his channel about how he became a Christian. He was a secular Jew in New York and basically everyone was like really, you know “New York.” Then he came to question the current ideologies. And that’s really what led him to consider other perspectives. And so I think that might be what James was referring to.
Andy C — Richard Ackerman has a fascinating story. He’s a charismatic individual with a lot of gifting. Rachel, can I just ask you to give a really quick overview of Operation Reconquista what its mission is and who’s behind it?
Rachael C – So it started in 2023 by Richard, who makes videos on Christian denominations and theology. And he makes it very accessible and simple and witty. In these bite-sized videos he sort of popularizes interest in theology and more complicated theological concepts. And he’s obviously very well read. He just ignited the idea to retake the mainlines even though they seem like a hopeless cause to outsiders. He highlighted the importance of the institutional church. And he highlighted historical orthodoxy and all the confessions and creeds and church history. That’s a lot of stuff that young people don’t usually think about. But he lays it out very clearly why all of that is important. So yeah, he started this movement. And each mainline denomination is like under this overall movement, but each denomination tries to start its own branch of it. We mostly talk on Discord and sometimes we have informal Bible studies. But mostly it’s just like a place to connect and talk about anything really. But we’re mostly interested in theology and retaking the mainlines.
Andy C – Rachel basically has sort of taken the lead with the Holy Spirit’s help to start something called PCC Renewal, which is not to be confused with Renewal Fellowship. Rachel is a gifted graphic artist so you should see some of the stuff that’s on their Instagram. It’s really quite powerful. And what amazes me about this generation, and we’re talking about Generation Z – so like mid-teens to late 20s – they like history. They like the confessions. They don’t mind the hymns. They’re not drawn to the mega church.
“What I have in my spirit is an urgency. There’s an urgency to preach the gospel. To preach the word.”
Rachael C – I think a lot people might have grown up in these non-denominational megachurches or just been around them, you start craving for something deeper after a while and in our current culture as well there’s just like ao many different ideologies you start questioning the root – like what has the deepest root. And like, it just causes you to question things more. And I think that’s why currently there’s like more converts to orthodox Eastern orthodoxy than ever before, especially among young men. And a lot of conversions to a lot of conversions Catholicism as well. I think people really are yearning for tradition – it’s just they might not let themselves admit to it. They might need someone like Richard to show them like this is actually right to desire and this is why this is actually important.
Andy C – A wonderful thing about Gen Z, of course, the younger you are, the better you are at understanding and using technology. So yeah, it’s an amazing gift. Rachel, we’re so honoured to have your acquaintance and to get to know you and to work together.
James S – I’m just going to confirm what you’re saying, Rachel. My son is a pastor ordained by the Presbytery of Ottawa. . . .and he’s been working at University of British Columbia, Okanagan College, which is a large campus now, as the chaplain. And he would absolutely confirm what you are saying in terms of young people wanting some order and some order in their religious experience and also inquiries, the traditional hymns, traditional liturgies are very appealing. He’s got a large ministry there. He’s the only chaplain on campus. . . . He speaks in churches all over in British Columbia here about his ministry at UBC and the changes that us old people just can’t seem to fathom, but to find young people interested in traditional religious expression is just a new thought for me. So thank you, Rachel.
Bob MacKenzie, Ottawa – There’s a book “Why we’re not emergent, by two guys who should be” by Kevin DeYoung and Ted Kluck, and they were talking about more or less what you were saying about dialogue and tolerance. It’s come to be in our society that if you don’t agree with me, I’m going to call you names, I’m going to inflame you, I’m going to do all sorts of things and exclude you. So the definition of tolerance has changed. It’s unfortunate that we can’t have tolerant dialogue on the things that we disagree on.
“Don’t lose heart, we are encouraged in it. While we’re doing it, remember we are in the world, not of the world. And we’re in it as light. So that is where my heart is. To preach the Gospel to get it out there however we can.”
Linda Shaw, Simcoe Ontario – Our church is growing every week. And we do have a number of people coming from who knows where and some are new immigrants and God is just blessing us and it’s kind of a mystery. I just got back from Winnipeg where at Westwood Presbyterian Church, probably a good quarter or a third of them are new Canadians. And they’ve welcomed them and they’re helping them to grow. So not all churches are going down. Some are going up and we don’t know why. You know it’s just God is blessing us.
Sybil Mosley, Montreal – Just to pick up from Linda. I don’t know if I can say my church is growing numerically. Because that is what we measure – a lot of people coming to your church by numbers. And God spoke to me about that because it used to bother me. When I came into pastoral ministry, all I was hearing was how to grow your church financially, how to grow your church numerically. And you go to a seminar. They talk about megachurch. My colleagues, my friends, said “Sybil, you need to go.” And it may cost at the time like $5,000, you know, but the national church will help to fund it. And it was so overwhelming. . . . So one day I just sat at my desk and when I saw all of these things telling me how to grow my church from 500 to 5,000 and all of these figures. I just held up my hands and I said, “God.” And I heard in my spirit: “I did not call you to build a mega church. I call you to build Mega Lives.” And since that day, about maybe 10 years ago, it’s like the bubble just came down and I’m in the life I believe that God calls me to live. Be his servant, preach the word. He will deal with everything else. . . . And for the past little while now, what I have in my spirit is an urgency. There’s an urgency to preach the gospel. To preach the word. And then Sunday, I’m doing a series or the theme we’re doing – fasting this month. We do it every January. And so the theme is “Watch and pray.” And so we are exploring that. And so the message was on “Watch for the sign.” Remember how it is in Matthew where it says you will see all these signs, rumors of war and all of those things and then Matthew 24:14 says preach the Gospel to all nations throughout the world and then the end will come. And I’m saying, “What is this? While we are worrying about everything that is happening.” Yes, we see, as Andy said, it’s just not that we are living in an interesting time. What was your other term that you mentioned?
Andy C – Extraordinary time.
Sybil M – Yes. You know it is such an eye-opener you know for us to preach the Gospel you know if even part of Jesus would come in his time. He said to preach the Gospel in season and out of season. And I said to my members, I hope I’m not an entertainer. I don’t think I’m a good one anyway. I’m not entertaining you. You are not spectators. You are participators. But everybody can tell somebody about the Gospel, about what God, what Jesus has done for you. And so that is where my heart is. I cannot help it. On my last birthday last year, I made a little thing with God, just with God. And I’m saying, God, I need to tell as many people about you at least once. If I do one every day. . . . I was watching this program not too long ago, a few weeks ago about prophecy. John Ankerberg interviewed people who are going into these remote places to carry the Gospel. They don’t have any written language, but they try to put the Gospel in their language and hundreds of people are coming to the Lord. When they hear the word of God in their language, they are just being saved. And I’m saying God I won’t be able to go there. But people are going. So I send my money. I support those that are going in it with the Gospel and reaching these people. Because like God is saying, you may not be able to tell everybody that you want, but you can get other people to do it with your help. . . . . God is not going to come because He’s such a good God. He says it’s not his will for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. So all that is keeping Jesus away is that he wants people to be saved because Jesus’s debt is not in vain. He will not die and people die and go to hell or wherever your punishment. He wants them to be saved. He did not say this Gospel will be preached throughout the world and everybody will be saved. He says everybody will hear. Everybody will hear and it’s up to them to make the decision with his help. And so this is where I am. This is where I’m trying to get my congregation and everybody that I talk to, you know, to hear the word of God, to you know preaching saints, share it however you need to get it out, that Jesus can come. Don’t be afraid. This is not the end. Don’t lose heart, we are encouraged in it. While we’re doing it, remember we are in the world, not of the world. And we’re in it as light. So that is where my heart is. To preach the Gospel to get it out there however we can.
“I’m seeing a lot of people just being pulled in so many directions, so much confusion happening that they’re yearning and they’re hungry for order. For simplicity.”
Andy C – Sybil, thank you. Thank you for sharing your heart. And I mean, a lot of things are going on in my head as you’re talking about that. And one is that the liberal progressive church doesn’t do that. They don’t talk about sin. They don’t talk about the need for salvation. They’re feeding a lot of people, they’re fighting a lot of justice stuff but they’re not preaching the word they’re not . . .
Sybil M – And that is why I’m in the Presbyterian church. That’s why I’m not going anywhere because that’s what he sends me to a people, not to a religion.
Andy C – Yeah. God bless you. Thank you.
Candice Bahadoor, Brampton ON – It’s been good to hear everyone’s point of view and what the Lord has called us. Yes, Sybil, to preach His word to preach His word no matter what is going on in our culture. In terms of what’s going on at the church that I’m at, we are growing. Both in numbers but in more so I’m seeing a growth in faith. A growth in a growth in people wanting to know more about the Lord. And so that is exciting. But I think for our congregation (Heart Lake) in Brampton with I think one of the highest property taxes with an influx of student immigrants and different religions, I’m seeing people’s priorities are just being pulled left, right, and center. And I started off this year really trying to preach on “What’s our priority?” Our priority is God. First, above anything else. It should be to love The Lord with everything we have, with our heart, our soul, our mind, our strength. The second, yes, is to love our neighbors as ourselves but our first – that is the most important relationship. And I think at least with young people. There’s just so many different things coming at them. That they really do want to know a stable foundation. They want to know “where should my priority be first?” . . . So who is the first priority in our life? And just to look at that, to reassess that through scripture. I think it is a very good reminder to all of our people and to us as well. If you’re a parent and you’re racing to get your son to school on time. Are you racing to get your son to church with the same urgency as you are to make sure that they get to get them there before the bell rings? So just to look at ways to place Him first because He places us first through the cross. So I think so for me, yes, I’m seeing a lot of people just being pulled in so many directions, so much confusion happening that they’re yearning and they’re hungry for order. For simplicity. And we don’t have a God of confusion. So I think that that’s something at least at my church that I’m sensing. Another big topic is identity. I’m going to start preaching on identity because we have to remember where our identity in Christ is. What does that mean? We’re forgiven, we’re saved. Were loved by God. And so that’s something if we don’t remind people, remind ourselves that the culture will tell us what our identity is. Right. We know that. So I think, yes, for Heart Lake it’s been, “What is our priority? How is God our priority? How is our relationship with God?” And really just continuing to preach his word. Preach his word regardless of what’s going on. Because that is what we have been called to do.
“With young people, there’s just so many different things coming at them. That they really do want to know a stable foundation. They want to know where should my priority be first?”
Andy C – Thank you, Candice. I echo what you say 100 per cent, but one of the things that gets me down and discourages me too is apathy, lethargy. A whole bunch of people who just don’t show up and they’ve made a decision. And these are leaders in the congregation, leaders in the church say, well, I’d rather go and do something else on a Sunday morning than turn up. I used to really get bothered about that, but maybe I just need to not let that get me down. Just carry on. Do what I need to do.
Candice B – Yeah, I think sometimes the enemy wants us to keep us down, right? Wants to keep us down and discouraged. Wants us to stay in that place of fear so that we do end up changing what we preach or we end up diluting it or just jumping so far. Now, I think we can learn, we can improve. As a preacher, I know I’m trying. But yes, I think that there’s something there to “What is our calling? Am I fulfilling it? To the best that I can with his help.”
Cecil Adams – Scarborough ON – I’m a member of Bridlewood Presbyterian Church in Scarborough, Ontario. . . . We have some immigrants coming in, but by and large, our congregation is older and there’s not much empathy to do too much when you get over 90 years old, you sort of run out of gas. And some of our people are like that. Anyhow, they’re plugging along. We have quite a few immigrants coming in but it’s difficult to get them merged in.
James S – Well, the Presbyterian Church originally was an immigrant church. And it’s happening again. And we’ve got about 20 Ukrainians coming to the first service at the church I go to. And a Mexican family just connected with us. The congregation is Lutheran so most of them have a German background and their parents fled the Russians after the First World War and now the Ukrainians are fleeing the Russians again, sadly. We need to learn how to be an immigrant church again.
Cecil A – Yeah, that would be good.
James S – I was too dumb to do it as a kid. I just remember kids coming into my class in the 1950s into my school classes and they couldn’t speak any English. And I remember one girl coming through up and down the aisles as we ate our lunch in the classroom and she was asking the kids if they were going to eat their apples or were they going to eat that because she had no food.
Cecil A – Boy. Fortunately, I didn’t experience that even though I grew up in the Depression
Linda S – I was going to say too, we’ve had a couple more children and a couple more youth start coming to our church. And we get so excited, but I’m talking two or three and we think it’s wonderful but very few parents. Most of them are coming with their grandparents.
Andy C – Yeah, there seems to be a generation that has been leaped over But hey, that’s what it is. Gen X, definitely. And the Millennials. But hey, welcome Gen Z.
James S – What we’re finding in our congregation is that the old people and their parents who’ve been going to the church for years, they’re finding a new role for them as grandparents to the immigrants. And there’s a lot of love and financial generosity happening. And that needs to happen. It’s just wonderful to see. There’s a new vitality in our congregation because of the immigrants that are there. And the immigrants are all immigrants in their 40s or 30s or 20s.
Andy C – We’re talking a lot about cultures and languages and age and I maintain that, and I think you all agree with me in this, that if you’re a true authentic believer submitted to Christ and are growing in your faith – language, culture, age means nothing. We are siblings in Christ.
And I find it amazing. That there is no such thing as a generation gap or a liberal gap. But in Christ, we are all one. It’s amazing.
James S – Yep. I’m enjoying working with one family in particular. I have to tell you, this is kind of funny, kind of cute actually I had this Ukrainian couple. They just got a new baby. And the father is in the front seat of my car with me. And all of a sudden he says the ‘F’ word. He’s telling me something, out it comes. And I thought, gee, what am I going to do here? Do I say something? So I said, “Vitaly, you know that in Canada, this is a really, really bad word.” And he says, “Oh, I didn’t know.” So his wife is sitting in the backseat with my wife. She’s shocked too.
His wife, Anastasia, speaks up and she says “ She says, “we hear it on the movies we watch on our TV.” Now, they’ve only been here less than a year. And so Anastasia says to me, she says, “Jim, can you give us some other words that aren’t quite as bad?” . . . My wife and I, we settled on one word that she could use and he could use if they really got angry or something. And it was darn. That’s pretty wimpy. But anyway. Maybe some of you have had that experience.
Cecil A – Yeah, there’s some pretty bad stuff on TV.
“Help us, Lord, to get on board and to see what you are seeing, Lord, that we will not miss you. Or miss what you are showing us.”
Andy C – Darn my socks! On that note, folks, I’m going to propose that we wind it up in prayer, so If somebody wants to kick it off let’s pray.
Gord W – Thank you, Lord, for being able to encourage one another. This evening. Lord, we pray you would guide us into all truth. That you would help us to love the folks that you send us effectively. Seek to meet their basic needs. And be true to your word. Thanks for this gathering for each person here.
Sybil M – Heavenly Father, we thank you so much, Lord, for your love for us. We thank you, God, that all that is happening here on Earth oh God or in this world. You are not oblivious to what’s happening. And so, God, we thank you, Lord, that you have a plan. When we don’t have one or when we mess up what we think is our plan. We are good at messing up things and we’re good at missing the messages. But oh God, you are so faithful that you are so faithful have not given up on us, Lord. As your word tells us, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. And so, God, we know that you know will tarry until more people are saved. Lord, we pray, God, that you will give us that desire. Lord, help us, O God, to be in tune with what you’re doing Lord, so that we don’t miss you as many people missed you in your first coming. Oh Lord, we know you’re coming back and it is soon, sooner than maybe many of us think of. But we know, God, that you are coming for a people. You are not coming to destroy. Lord Jesus you come to give life. And so we thank you, God, that we are a part of this great and marvelous mission Lord, that you call us to. Because we are really your mission. Oh God you came to save us. So help us, Lord, to get on board and to see what you are seeing, Lord, that we will not miss you. Or miss what you are showing us. Thank you, Lord, for the reminders of the mission to which we are called. Thank you for hearing us.
Candice B – Heavenly Father, I thank you for this time that we have had together, Lord. To fellowship and to share what each of us are going through. Lord, our situations are not all the same, Lord. But we all rely on you. That is the same. And so, Lord, we place our trust in you. That you know the future. What it will bring. For churches that are, yes, going through a real time of drought Lord, this is no surprise to you, Lord. You have been through seasons within countries of seeing your people go through similar times of outright rebellion to you. But yet, Lord, you remain true and you stick by those, Lord, who are faithful to you. And so, Lord, we just continue to place our trust in you for our people. And for those, Lord, who have yet to come to you and accept the Good News of your son, Jesus Christ, Lord. Help us. Give us the words to speak to them. Help us to know how to speak to them. Help us to know how to preach. Let us know, Lord, what you would have us say. Help us, Lord, to not get too wrapped up in what is happening around in our culture? Lord, we know that you are in control. That you can raise up kings, cause them to fall, Lord, but you are supreme. So help us, Lord, to stay focused on you, Lord. When distractions pull at us and our people, Lord, help us to place you as number one in our lives.
Andy C – Gracious God. Father, I thank you so much for this rich time of discussion this evening for my sisters, my brothers. Father, help us press the pause button. Help us turn down the volume. Help us focus on your voice, on that whisper, that quiet word of wisdom. Father, help us rediscover what it is to be the church in a very noisy, divided, anxious, tumultuous world. Holy Spirit, come. Prince of Peace, emerge. You are welcome. Help us. Create new ways of submitting to you. Of welcoming your presence in our families and our lives and in our congregations and neighborhoods. And our nations. Come, Holy Spirit. I’ll lift that up in the name of our Lord, who was and is and is to come. And God’s people say. Amen. Amen.
A chorus of Amens.
